Episode 124 - Letter to Herodotus 13 - Life On Other Worlds, Development of Language, And the Regular Motion of the Stars
Date: 06/04/22
Link: https://www.epicureanfriends.com/thread/2538-episode-one-hundred-twenty-four-letter-to-herodotus-13-life-on-other-worlds-deve/
Summary
Section titled “Summary”Joshua reads sections 74-77, covering three major topics: the existence of living creatures on other worlds, the natural development of language, and why celestial motions must not be attributed to supernatural beings. On life on other worlds (sections 74-75), Cassius traces the cosmological argument through Lucretius Book 1 (lines 1023-1077), noting the isonomia principle (“no single thing of a kind”), and Joshua reads Lucretius Book 5 (lines 1063+) on how diverse sounds constrain animals to different cries — the analogy for how language develops naturally from circumstance rather than divine gift. Robert Frost’s poem “Lucretius vs. the Lake Poets” is quoted for its witty defense of the Lucretian sense of “nature” as “the whole goddamn machinery” rather than mere pleasant scenery, while discussion of Lucian of Samosata’s “The Death of Peregrine” — one of the earliest descriptions of a Christian community, calling early Christians prey for charismatic charlatans — illustrates what the Epicurean worldview was up against. The anniversary of Thales’ predicted solar eclipse (May 28, 585 BC) coincides with the recording date; Joshua traces how this event reportedly stopped a battle between the Medes and the Lydians and what Isaac Asimov called “the birth of science.” The episode closes with section 77’s insistence that celestial motions not be ascribed to supernatural causes — Epicurus warns against attributing “bliss and immortality” to celestial bodies, because that is the root of the fear that destroys peace of mind.
Transcript
Section titled “Transcript”Cassius: Welcome to Episode 124 of Lucretius Today. I’m your host Cassius, and today we continue in Epicurus’s Letter to Herodotus, addressing several topics including life on other worlds, the formation of language, and the regular motion of the stars. Now let’s join Joshua reading today’s text.
Joshua: And in addition to what we have already said, we must believe that worlds and indeed every limited compound body which continuously exhibits a similar appearance to the things we see were created from the infinite, and that all such things, greater and less alike, were separated off from individual agglomerations of matter. And that all are again dissolved, some more quickly, some more slowly, some suffering from one set of causes, others from another. And further, we must believe that these worlds were neither created all of necessity with one configuration, nor yet with every kind of shape. Furthermore, we must believe that in all worlds there are living creatures and plants and other things we see in this world. For indeed, no one could prove that in a world of one kind there might or might not have been included the kinds of seeds from which living things and plants and all the rest of the things we see are composed, and that in a world of another kind they could not have been. Moreover, we must suppose that human nature, too, was taught and constrained to do many things of every kind merely by circumstances, and that later on reasoning elaborated what had been suggested by nature and made further inventions in some matters quickly and in others slowly at some epochs and times making great advances and lesser again at others. And so names, too, were not at first deliberately given to things, but men’s natures according to their different nationalities had their own peculiar feelings and received their peculiar impressions. And so each, in their own way, emitted air formed into shape by each of these feelings and impressions, according to the differences made in the different nations by the places of their abode as well. And then, later on, by common consent in each nationality, special names were deliberately given in order to make their meanings less ambiguous to one another and more briefly demonstrated. And sometimes those who were acquainted with them brought in things hitherto unknown and introduced sounds for them, on some occasions being naturally constrained to utter them, and on others choosing them by reasoning in accordance with the prevailing mode of formation and thus making their meaning clear. Furthermore, the motions of the heavenly bodies and their turnings and eclipses and risings and settings and kindred phenomena to these must not be thought to be due to any being who controls and ordains or has ordained them and at the same time enjoys perfect bliss together with immortality, for trouble and care and anger and kindness are not consistent with the life of blessedness. But these things come to pass where there is weakness and fear and dependence on neighbors. Nor again must we believe that they, which are fire agglomerated in a mass, possess blessedness and voluntarily take upon themselves these movements. But we must preserve their full majestic significance in all expressions which we apply to such conceptions in order that there may not arise out of them opinions contrary to this notion of majesty. Otherwise, this very contradiction will cause the greatest disturbance in men’s minds. Therefore, we must believe that it is due to the original inclusion of matter in such agglomerations during the birth process of the world that this law of regular succession is also brought about.
Cassius: Thank you, Joshua. We are back in more familiar territory after spending time on properties and qualities. Today our passage breaks down into three sections: life on other worlds, the arising of language, and why we must not ascribe the rising and setting of the sun and eclipses to supernatural causes. Let’s start with section 74 — the basic observation that everything we see in our world is a product of agglomerations of matter, which eventually dissolves back into that matter.
Joshua: This is the stuff that really makes people rethink the universe they’re living in. In ancient Greece, in Lucretius’s circle, and certainly in the Renaissance, this must have been absolutely earth-shattering — to imagine other worlds with their own suns and moons, with creatures and presumably intelligent life on them. This is the Epicurean physics I really love.
Cassius: And what Epicurus means by “world” is not just a planet. He considered each region of what we would call the universe to be its own world — its own segment of the things visible around us. When he says other worlds have their own sun and their own moon, some might not have a moon — he’s not necessarily talking about Venus as another world. The question of life in the universe remains scientifically open, as Martin has noted before.
Martin: This question is still open. There is no life on Venus — we’ve known that for decades from the temperature and atmospheric composition. But there is one data point from Venus — a compound found there at concentrations that seem to require a biological source to supply it continuously. I haven’t seen that confirmed or refuted definitively, so I regard the question of life elsewhere in the universe as still very much alive. The physics community tends toward “there should be many”; some biologists are more skeptical.
Cassius: Section 74 also says these worlds were neither all created with one configuration nor with every kind of shape — a middle position. And section 74-75 says we must believe that in all worlds there are living creatures and plants. No one can prove they couldn’t be there.
Joshua: And he’s making flat assertions from his premises that Frances Wright would have been more cautious about — she was more inclined to stay close to observable facts. But for Epicurus, the infinite universe and the eternal age of things make it reasonable to project outward from what we see here and conclude that similar things happen elsewhere.
Cassius: And this is a direct contradiction of Genesis — “God created the heaven and the earth, and placed men on earth.” Lucretius is even more explicit — Book 1, around lines 1067-1077 — “it must needs be that you confess that there are other worlds in other regions and diverse races of men and tribes of wild beasts.”
Joshua: There was actually an article I once read — I don’t remember the author — that used one short line in Lucretius about strange animals from Africa and Asia that “seem to come from another world” to argue that Lucretius must have been insane because he should have known his teacher’s view. As if quoting a popular figure of speech disproves all of Lucretian physics. An absolutely absurd argument but slightly infuriating to read.
Cassius: Section 75 and 76 — language. He says human nature was taught and constrained to do many things merely by circumstances, and that reasoning later elaborated on what nature suggested. Language arose not by deliberate assignment of names but by natural utterance shaped by circumstances and feelings. This is not God giving Adam the names of things.
Joshua: This connects to what Robert Frost said in his poem “Lucretius vs. the Lake Poets.” A dean said something at a college dinner about Walter Savage Landor’s line “Nature I loved and next to nature art,” and Frost responded — I’ll read the whole thing, it’s very short: “Dean adult education may seem silly / What of it though I got some willy nilly / The other evening at your college dinery / And grateful for it let’s not be facetious / For I thought Epicurus and Lucretius / By nature meant the whole goddamn machinery / But you say that in college nomenclature / The only meaning possible for nature / In Landor’s quatrain would be pretty scenery / Which makes — oh my God — which makes opposing it to art absurd.” He’s coming down hard on the academics and defending the full Epicurean meaning of nature — everything that’s going on in the universe.
Cassius: That’s wonderful. And in Lucretius Book 5, around line 1063, he says: “when the large loose lips of Molossian dogs start to snarl in anger bearing their teeth drawn back in rage, they threaten with a noise far other than when they bark and fill all around with their clamor, yet when they fondle their cubs with their tongue… they fondle them with their growling voice in a way far other than when left in the house they bay.” He goes on and concludes: “so if diverse feelings constrain animals though they are dumb to utter diverse sounds, how much more likely is it that mortals should then be able to mark off things unlike with one sound and another.” Language is a natural phenomenon — we don’t need Apollo to teach it.
Cassius: Now section 77 — the motions of the heavenly bodies and their turnings and eclipses must not be thought due to any being who controls and ordains them. This is one of the real major premises of Epicurean philosophy. I want to note that as we record this, it is June 4, 2022, and yesterday was June 3rd — just a few days ago was May 28th, the anniversary of the day in 585 BC when Thales predicted a solar eclipse. He predicted it on the day of a battle between the Medes and the Lydians, and the two tribes were so overawed that they dropped their weapons and stopped fighting.
Joshua: According to Herodotus, that is. And Diogenes Laertius. We’re not certain he actually did it — it was possible to predict the day of an eclipse if you knew a certain mathematical cycle, but not the location. Isaac Asimov described this battle as the earliest historical event whose date is known with precision to the day, and called that prediction “the birth of science.”
Cassius: Whether it happened exactly that way or not, it represents this moment when a human intellect discerned the laws of nature. This is what Mark Twain’s “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court” is about — the Boss uses a predicted eclipse to save himself from being burned at the stake. One of the great themes of that book is his fight against the church and the oppression organized religion caused.
Joshua: Lucian of Samosata is the one I keep coming back to — he’s considered the father of science fiction precisely because his interest in Epicurean philosophy made him so revolted by religious superstition that he wrote “The True Story,” the very first proto-science fiction narrative, about a war between the forces of the sun and the moon. And his “Death of Peregrine” — have you read that, Cassius?
Cassius: I have mentioned it before. He describes an early Christian community — I’ll read part of it: “It is now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians in Palestine and picked up their queer creed… he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority. Prophet, elder, ruler of the synagogue — he was everything at once. He expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself. They took him for God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president. The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day… And then he goes on: ‘Now an adroit unscrupulous fellow who has seen the world has only to get among these simple souls and his fortune is pretty soon made.’” This Peregrine then claims he’s going to cast himself into fire to show his supernatural powers, and contributions pour in.
Joshua: The first televangelist!
Cassius: Exactly. And this is perhaps one of the few surviving ancient texts by someone sympathetic to Epicureanism that specifically comments on early Christians. Although in “Alexander the Oracle Monger” Lucian gives Christians a slight left-handed compliment for not falling for Alexander’s obvious frauds — though only because they had their own supernatural system to protect.
Joshua: There’s also Celsus — or Kelcis — who some have argued was an Epicurean and whose critique of Christianity survives only in the church father’s writings against it. Worth reading in the context of the age of Julian the Apostate.
Cassius: The last part of section 77 that I want to note: “We must preserve their full majestic significance in all expressions which we apply to such conceptions in order that there may not arise out of them opinions contrary to this notion of majesty. Otherwise this very contradiction will cause the greatest disturbance in men’s minds.” This is an echo of what we might call a concern with impiety — but with a completely different motivation from the Ten Commandments. Epicurus is not saying “don’t talk loosely about the gods because a jealous deity will punish you.” He’s saying don’t talk about the gods as capricious, because if you fall into that habit people will fall back into the superstition and the disturbance that comes from it.
Martin: Nothing to add.
Joshua: My closing thought is that this is when I feel the most sympathy with Epicurus when he says his chief joy comes from the study of nature. Talking about life on other worlds, about the motions of the planets and the process of nature that gives birth to and decays bodies — this is the Epicurus I find most pleasurable to study.
Cassius: And speaking only for myself — how many times have I glanced at the Letter to Herodotus and thought “this is so boring, I’ll never read this.” And then when you dig into it you begin to see how it all fits together. One of these days I’d like to be able to articulate how properties and qualities of matter and void are just as exciting as life on other planets. For now, life on other planets gives people a hook. We’ll come back next week for what may be our final section of the Letter to Herodotus. Thanks everybody, and we’ll see you then. Bye.
Joshua: Bye.
Martin: Bye.